 
[10:03] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- Init".
[10:03] <rdieter> KDE SIG Meeting start.. who's present today?
[10:03] <Kevin_Kofler> Me. :-)[10:04] * SMParrish here[10:04] * jreznik seems to be here, first time from Konversation 4 :)
[10:05] * rdieter woos!
[10:06] <than> present[10:06] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03 -- KDE-4.2.0 updates status: queued/pending".
[10:06] <rdieter> topic: KDE-4.2.0 updates status: queued/pending
[10:07] <rdieter> well, not much else to say there, asked on #fedora-devel earlier about eta on the next bodhi push... 
[10:07] <rdieter> nada
[10:08] <Kevin_Kofler> One thing we could be rolling in would be a fix for the F-9 kde-settings glitch with the KDM background image.
[10:08] <Kevin_Kofler> (If you disable the theme, then you get the background set to a nonexistent image.)
[10:08] <rdieter> yes, Kevin_Kofler , mind working on that?
[10:08] <Kevin_Kofler> Not that it's really a KDE 4.2.0 blocker, but as we're updating kde-settings anyway we could roll that in.
[10:08] <Kevin_Kofler> Uh, I don't think I'll have time before Sunday.
[10:09] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: what does it need to be done? to fix it?
[10:10] <Kevin_Kofler> Fix the file name in the KDM backgroundrc in kde-settings (F-9 branch) to /usr/share/backgrounds/waves/waves-normal-3-night.png
[10:10] <Kevin_Kofler> Then export the branch, build a new kde-settings in F9 from that and edit the update.
[10:10] <Kevin_Kofler> (Version should stay at 4.0 in F9, Release should be bumped.)
[10:12] <than> jreznik, could you please take care of it?[10:12] <jreznik> ok
[10:12] <than> jreznik, thanks
[10:13] <rdieter> anything else 4.2.0-update-related?  move on?
[10:14] <Kevin_Kofler> Oh, there are review requests for libfli and libindi now.
[10:14] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: is someone working on reviews?
[10:14] <rdieter> astronomy sig to the rescue for the pkgs, reviewers needed.
[10:15] <Kevin_Kofler> One of us should review these ASAP (unless we can find a second Astronomy SIG guy to do the reviews). (As I said, I won't have time before at least Sunday and I'll be somehow busy then too, so I'd prefer if somebody else did it.)[10:16] <Kevin_Kofler> Sorry I'm not of much use these days, but I'm burned out from university projects.
[10:16] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: take some days off, you've earned it. :)
[10:17] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: uni is top priority
[10:17] <jreznik> do you have #bz for review?
[10:17] <rdieter> jreznik: they're linked from the kde42 blocker
[10:17] * jreznik is just lazy :)[10:18] <rdieter> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482807
[10:18] <buggbot> Bug 482807: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libfli - Library for FLI CCD Camera & Filter Wheels[10:18] <rdieter> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483438
[10:18] <buggbot> Bug 483438: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libindi - Instrument Neutral Distributed Interface
[10:18] <rdieter> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482807
[10:18] <buggbot> Bug 482807: medium, medium, ---, nobody@fedoraproject.org, NEW, Review Request: libfli - Library for FLI CCD Camera & Filter Wheels
[10:18] <rdieter> oh, circular, fun
[10:19] <Kevin_Kofler> libfli first, libindi BRs it.
[10:19] * ltinkl is back
[10:19] <jreznik> I don't understand astronomical stuff but I can do more reviews to that plasma related from today... in formal way
[10:20] <Kevin_Kofler> You just have to review the packaging...[10:20] <Kevin_Kofler> We can't really check that it works without a telescope.
[10:20] <pingou> I can take an easy one if needed :)
[10:20] * jreznik is busy on s-c-* tools cleanup but KDE's are more fun for him :)
[10:21] <jreznik> pingou: telescope? :)
[10:21] <Kevin_Kofler> Well, I think a webcam can be used to some extent.
[10:21] <pingou> jreznik, not that I see ;/
[10:21] <Kevin_Kofler> There are drivers for webcams in libindi.
[10:21] <Kevin_Kofler> But you don't test the motor controlling stuff and the like that way, of course.
[10:22] <Kevin_Kofler> But I think we just need to trust that it works and check the packaging.
[10:22] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: I know but I don't like approve something without chance to try it if it is really working :D but that's for bugzilla is
[10:22] <Kevin_Kofler> Runtime QA is only a SHOULD, and in this case there's a good reason not to test it properly. ;-)
[10:23] <rdieter> reminds me of... the vl4/kopete stuff too, we still need that fixed, yes?
[10:23] <rdieter> guess we dropped that from the kde42 blocker
[10:23] <jreznik> rdieter: I have patch but again - need some monkey to test it :) ltinkl could you build it now with your webcam?
[10:24] <ltinkl> jreznik, rdieter: sure[10:24] <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: If I were you I'd just commit it and let Rawhide/updates-testing users try it out.
[10:24] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: +1, can't be worse off than it is now
[10:24] <jreznik> rdieter: can be worst :)
[10:24] <rdieter> bonus points for anything upstreamable
[10:25] <jreznik> no webcam at all :)
[10:25] <rdieter> jreznik: isn't "no webcam at all" the status-quo?
[10:25] <jreznik> rdieter: I'm preparing better upstreamable patch
[10:25] <Kevin_Kofler> Depends on the webcam.
[10:25] <jreznik> rdieter: no
[10:25] <rdieter> oh, fun.
[10:25] <jreznik> some webcams are working, some not
[10:25] <Kevin_Kofler> Some webcams work without conversion, most need at least Bayer decoding.
[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> Though I guess some drivers still decode Bayer in the kernel.[10:26] <jreznik> ltinkl has one which is not working, so he's good testing subject
[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> And some webcams have really funky compression schemes.
[10:26] <jreznik> and libv4l solves it[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> By the way, libindi's webcam driver should also be fixed to use libv4l at some point.
[10:26] <jreznik> + allows v4l1 cams in v4l2 apps
[10:26] <ltinkl> mine doesn't without jreznik's patch
[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> But that's not a review blocker.
[10:26] <than> jreznik, could you please commit the patch and built it in rawhide. if you have the patch?
[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> libindi has some format conversion code, but not as much as libv4l.
[10:26] <Kevin_Kofler> So it should be using libv4l.
[10:27] <jreznik> ok, I note it :)
[10:27] <ltinkl> than: a scratch build for me would be fine I guess
[10:27] <than> ltinkl,  rawhide is ok
[10:27] <ltinkl> ok
[10:27] <jreznik> it is really easy patch[10:28] <Kevin_Kofler> If you have time, you can fix xine-lib and libindi next.
[10:28] <Kevin_Kofler> They both have v4l decoding without libv4l support.
[10:28] <rdieter> xine-lib too?  oh my.
[10:28] <jreznik> first I'd like to prepare upstreamable patch with cmake module for libv4l + let it be optional
[10:28] <Kevin_Kofler> xine-lib can be used to play incoming v4l stuff.
[10:29] <Kevin_Kofler> Mainly useful for TV-like devices. But it can also be used to test your webcam.
[10:29] <jreznik> hans did really good work - it's work for sed to port it to v4l[10:29] <jreznik> libv4l
[10:29] <jreznik> I'll commit it
[10:31] <Kevin_Kofler> OK, move on now?[10:32] <ltinkl> yup
[10:33] <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: Next topic please. :-)
[10:33] <rdieter> alright
[10:33] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03  -- acpid: Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet , https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483417".
[10:33] <rdieter>  acpid: Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet , https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=483417".
[10:34] <rdieter> obvious borkage going on there, with some ideas on how to fix it.
[10:34] <jreznik> my colleague asked me today to help him with it... for guidance it's easy
[10:34] <buggbot> Bug 483417: low, low, ---, zprikryl@redhat.com, ASSIGNED, Leave power button to KDE's power-management applet
[10:34] <jreznik> but for powerdevil which is KDED module it's more funny
[10:35] <rdieter> making acpid play nice with powerdevil may be tricky, but I'd venture some dbus queries might do the trick
[10:35] <than> isn't there a tool like dcop (kde3) to check if powerdevil is running?
[10:35] <jreznik> there is  org.kde.powerdevilsystem interface
[10:35] <rdieter> qdbus org.kde.powerdevilsystem
[10:36] <Kevin_Kofler> Yeah, that should do the trick.
[10:36] <jreznik> maybe just checking if kded4 is running as opensuse do is enough, but it's not 100%
[10:36] <rdieter> assuming permissions allow the query
[10:36] <Kevin_Kofler> If qdbus is not there, KDE isn't either.
[10:36] <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: If not, the permissions need to be fixed.
[10:36] <jreznik> but first you have to get x session, no?
[10:37] <rdieter> jreznik: that's an overly big hammer... will check true even in other DE's running a kde app, no?
[10:37] <Kevin_Kofler> Hmmm, right, that stuff is in the D-Bus session bus.
[10:37] <Kevin_Kofler> Not the system bus.
[10:37] <Kevin_Kofler> So you need access to the session bus to do that.
[10:37] <Kevin_Kofler> :-(
[10:37] <jreznik> maybe consolekit could help to get session, no?
[10:38] <rdieter> but checking for kded4 is better than the status quo
[10:39] <jreznik> opensuse handles it better in my opinion - they use ConsoleKit to get list of session, in Fedora there's hack to get first running session and that's all[10:40] <rdieter> haven't looked at it all too closely myself, but that sounds better to me too
[10:41] <Kevin_Kofler> But that still doesn't give access to the D-Bus session bus, does it?[10:41] <Kevin_Kofler> We need to query the session bus to know whether PowerDevil is running in the session.
[10:42] <Kevin_Kofler> Otherwise, checking for kded4 is the best we can do.
[10:43] <jreznik> I'm not sure if we can get access to session bus, it may be possible with this approach...
[10:43] <jreznik> is kded4 running when some kde app is running in gnome?
[10:43] * rdieter thinks so
[10:43] <than> jreznik, yes
[10:44] <ltinkl> it should be possible to query kded4 for running modules
[10:44] <Kevin_Kofler> I don't think it's possible from outside the session.
[10:44] <Kevin_Kofler> The D-Bus session bus is only accessible from stuff started from the session.
[10:44] <rdieter> shrug, how about we continue the topic after meeting?
[10:44] <jreznik> acpid is really outdated - but required for not gnome/kde desktops/servers :(
[10:45] <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO it should just be disabled entirely.
[10:45] <Kevin_Kofler> The poweroff at least.
[10:45] <rdieter> if not done already, let's verify that it's omitted from the kde spin.
[10:45] <ltinkl> let's move on and leave it to our channel after the meeting
[10:45] *** You set the channel topic to "KDE SIG Meeting -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2009-02-03  -- open discussion".
[10:46] <jreznik> rdieter: please log it for me I have to leave right after meeting
[10:46] <rdieter> that's it for the agenda.  
[10:46] <rdieter> open floor
[10:47] <rdieter> jreznik: will do
[10:47] <jreznik> so I'll try it again - flags issue while I'm reviewing package with flags :([10:48] <Kevin_Kofler> I think we need to complain to fedora-legal-list and/or FESCo to try to get the ban on flags overturned.
[10:48] <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO it makes no sense in Fedora.
[10:48] <Kevin_Kofler> We don't have to worry about losing sales to some countries because we aren't selling it.
[10:49] <rdieter> or... how about a modest approach... ping folks to see if it's more of a MUST or SHOULD item, if the latter, use our best judgement
[10:50] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: it's not about sales - it's about hate between nations :( but this is not right place to solve this "issue"[10:50] <jreznik> rdieter: seems ok to ping someone
[10:50] <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: I'd rather like to get flags allowed outright.
[10:51] <Kevin_Kofler> Allowing it in some packages and not in others is stupid.
[10:51] <Kevin_Kofler> Then it makes more sense to consistently ban them (even if I disagree with the rationale).
[10:52] <rdieter> depends on the reasons.... using flags to refer to locale's is not the best idea...  is the rationale used atm.
[10:52] <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: There are plenty of items banned in some nations.
[10:52] <Kevin_Kofler> Games, crypto etc.
[10:52] <Kevin_Kofler> If we remove everything which is banned in some nation, we don't have much left!
[10:53] <Kevin_Kofler> It's already bad enough that we have to follow US laws (patents, DMCA etc.)!
[10:53] <Kevin_Kofler> Why do we have to follow the laws of every single country on the Planet?
[10:53] <Kevin_Kofler> It doesn't make sense!
[10:53] <ltinkl> same with MP3 codecs
[10:53] [Notify] tibbs is online (irc.freenode.org).
[10:53] <ltinkl> it's perfectly legal to rip (own) CDs here in .cz
[10:54] <ltinkl> yet I don't see why Fedora doesn't allow me what I'm entitled for[10:54] <jwb> not to distract you, but ranting against that in your meeting isn't going to be very productive
[10:54] <Kevin_Kofler> We actually do have CD rippers in Fedora.
[10:54] <jreznik> ltinkl: mp3 is patented... sou you can rip it but you have to pay for encoder
[10:54] <Kevin_Kofler> Which brings me to another example: some countries ban ripping CDs even for personal use.
[10:54] <Kevin_Kofler> So do we remove CD ripping from K3b now?
[10:55] <Kevin_Kofler> It doesn't make sense to follow every possible country's law!
[10:55] <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: you're getting a little absurd now. :)
[10:55] <jreznik> jwb is right, complain here is crying on bad place
[10:55] <ltinkl> jreznik, Kevin_Kofler: was my point, forget MP3, you can encode to OGG for example
[10:55] <Kevin_Kofler> The rationale for not shipping the flags is that they're banned in some countries.
[10:55] <Kevin_Kofler> If we follow that consistently, we end up removing at least half of the distro!
[10:55] <rdieter> not quite, my interpretation anyway
[10:55] <ltinkl> jwb: we know that, we're just trying to decide what stance to take in the case of missing flags in KDE
[10:55] <Kevin_Kofler> And we won't have much stuff left once we remove OpenSSL because it's crypto.
[10:56] <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: but not only banned - but some people feels offended by other flags
[10:56] <Kevin_Kofler> Guess what, I don't give a darn.
[10:56] <Kevin_Kofler> People feel offended by a lot of things.
[10:56] <ltinkl> same discussion happened inside KDE some years ago, KDE decided to stay politically neutral and include the flags[10:56] <jreznik> go with us flag to iran and you will see :)
[10:56] <ltinkl> just for the record
[10:57] <Kevin_Kofler> People in several countries get offended by the sight of a foot sole, so let's ban GNOME! ^^
[10:57] <SePhIr0tH> +1
[10:57] <jreznik> so stop for now - conclusion? write to fedora-devel? fesco? fedora-legal?
[10:58] <jreznik> we need to solve this
[10:58] <rdieter> ltinkl: interesting... 
[10:59] <rdieter> if upstream kde knowingly chooses to go this route, I think we should consider following suit, and not hamper/cripple things in a fedora-specific way
[11:00] <rdieter> not binding, but I'd like an informal vote, on how everyone feels.  yes = restore flags, no = status quo
[11:00] <ltinkl> rdieter: let me find the (lengthy) discussion in the ML archives
[11:00] <rdieter> ltinkl: thanks, that would be helpful
[11:00] <bpepple> jreznik: I'd contact the Fedora board since I think they were the ones that made the decision regarding flags.  I'm not really sure FESCo would be the right folks to contact, since it isn't really a technical issue..
[11:03] * rdieter votes yes, anyone else?
[11:03] <SePhIr0tH> yes
[11:04] <rdieter> than, Kevin_Kofler, jreznik, SMParrish ?


[11:04] <Kevin_Kofler> Yes, take it up with FPB and yes, I want the flags back!
[11:05] * rdieter forgot ltinkl, you too.
[11:05] <jreznik> rdieter: not sure - it should be separated in own package at least
[11:05] <rdieter> jreznik: nod, optional, but let's leave the technical/implementation details aside for the moment
[11:05] <ltinkl> rdieter: yes, include it Fedora, as in upstream
[11:06] <than> please ask the fedora board
[11:06] <spot> i actually talked to RH Legal about this
[11:06] <jreznik> than: I'm with than
[11:06] <than> if it's ok to include flags
[11:06] <spot> and they have a response, but it is rather elaborate, and I haven't had time to write it up yet
[11:06] <rdieter> spot: is there a short/cliffs-notes version?  :)
[11:07] <than> please remove it temporary before we know
[11:07] <spot> no, or i would have written it up already. :)
[11:07] <than> before the Legal could give us the answer
[11:07] <rdieter> spot: thanks, I wasn't aware of any legal issues, I assumed it was just a policy/pc decision
[11:07] <spot> rdieter: well, it affects export
[11:08] <rdieter> craptastic
[11:08] <spot> china won't accept anything with the taiwanese flag, for example
[11:08] <rdieter> umm... since when is fedora "exported"? (or is that a bad/naive question to ask)?
[11:08] <Rathann|work> or tibetan? ;)
[11:09] <spot> rdieter: it isn't, but RHEL is
[11:09] <Kevin_Kofler> Is the Tibetan flag even included in KDE?
[11:09] <rdieter> spot: so what's that have to do with us/fedora ? :)
[11:09] <Kevin_Kofler> (But the Taiwanese flag is, in any case.)
[11:10] <spot> rdieter: its why RH Legal had advise for us
[11:10] <spot> its partly legal and partly policy
[11:10] <spot> i was going to draft a recommendation on handling it for FESCo
[11:10] <rdieter> shrug, looks like we can afford to play it safe, and await the details
[11:11] <rdieter> we're out of time today anyway, let's close up shop
[11:11] <rdieter> KDE SIG Meeting end, thanks everyone.